Jazz Beginner and newbie

heavensoul · Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2003 6:49 am Post subject: Jazz Beginner and newbie

Hi Just a word to introduce myself. Name is Robert. I am 50 ish years old. I have been a christian for about 5 years and I have just been asked to join our church worship band. The eldest in the band being 17 years old and the youngest 12. Yea I am too old to be in a youth band lol. I asked about the youth thing but the pastor told me it's not a youth band but only the youth want to play in the band. Sad because we have some excellent guitarists and singers in our church and one is a recording artist with a cd out now. I think the pastor asked me in the hope that the other musicians will join the band. We are all oldies but goodies. For what it's worth I said yes. Please pray for me; I will need it lol. I am into the blues (Where is the blues forum?) And I am just starting out in Jazz guitar because I feel I am in a rut as far as guitar is concerned. Sick of the samr old scales and licks. God wants our best so lets give Him our best and for me the best way to go if you want to learn impro and song writing is Jazz. As a Jazz beginner I know nothing lol. Q What is the best way to start learning Jazz? Very Happy

Brian Miller · Newbie Alert Joined: 05 Aug 2003 Posts: 3

Brother Robert wrote

XtremeGodChaser · Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 8:53 am Post subject:

Hey Robert & Brian...! Nice to be around u guyz.!

Actually I'm a jazz lover too..! So thought of u know convertin those christian songs to a Jazzy feel...especially old ones...! I juz started jazz guitaring for bout 3 months now..pretty love it..! I'l start servin beginning this december in Main service...coz rite now i'm preparing my O'level exams...and yeah i'm 17 yrs old ova..here...! So u c wat i plan once i get in there..i'm gonna giv God my best...inspire others.. I really need more tips from u guyz so i guess let us learn together ya ?

seanyuen · Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 2:31 am Post subject:

Hi! I'm Sean and I love Jazz too! Have been playing in church for a few years, but want love to learn Jazz now. Anyone has any good idea on how to get started?

sharring · Tiger Joined: 04 Feb 2004 Posts: 812 Location: Texas

Since we are all introducing ourselves, i'm scott...45yo and been playing at guitar for 25+ years. I love jazz, blues and country Exclamation

, am especially fond of the place where they all meet. Seriously, genre is less important than the message and the passion.
IMO a good place to start learning jazz is the music. Immerse yourself. Find out what you like. However buying all those CD's can get expensive so get some books on jazz and it's history. It's important to get more than one opinion on anything. A local library will likely have some good books. If you live close to a college you are in luck. If they have a music program they will have free concerts so that students can get some performance credits. Here in the states, junior colleges sometimes have beginner jazz classes where you can play with others. Self-help literature (Mickey Baker, Jamie Abersold...) is very good.
Having said all that i must admit i'm not a good jazzer. I can play just enough to fake it and maybe add some flavor. But there are others on this board (Herb, Steve, Brian and F1) whose opinions would be valuable. I have learned a lot from brother Steve lately. I think he's been holding out on me all this time Exclamation

Be God's-scott

Steve · Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 7:26 am Post subject:

My advice for starting Jazz studies on guitar would be to find a Jazz guitar teacher locally.
In my case, I grew up fingerpickin' Folk songs, then got impressed by Mike Bloomfield's work with Paul Butterfield, so played Blues for many years, but always loved Barney Kessel, Johnny Smith, Howard Roberts, et al.
I started Jazz studies at the local Junior College, and took some lessons from a local Jazz teacher on guitar to apply the theories I was learning to the neck.
That's how it worked out for me, and though I am no smokin' be-bopper I use what I learned there every time I look at a Contemporary Worship chart. It gave me an approach so I at least know where I am in terms of key centers, diatonic theory (as opposed to only pentatonic), etc.

All that to say this: it started for me with understanding the harmonized seventh scale and associated modes. That's the next level of theory after triads.

If there is no local teacher in your area, there are lots of sources on the web. Jazz is a life-long learning experience. I enjoy magazines like Just Jazz Guitar, and Jazz Improvisation. There are many good tips in those magazines, but a more comprehensive approach will fill in the blanks.

When I taught at UCSC, I used Perry Terhune's excellent resources at Guitar Masters:

http://guitar-masters.com/

Herb · Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 10:48 am Post subject:

Steve has pretty much summed up what I would have to say. Most blues and rock players literally "live" in the pentatonic scale. Most jazz scales are everything but that one (it gets used occasionally for a different flavor). A good jazz teacher will be the most productive way to learn. Study scales, modes, arpeggios, basic theory, and after you get the idea of how passing tones work, and where the notes will fall between chords, you'll understand all the "complicated" jazz chords and how they are "built".

sharring · Tiger Joined: 04 Feb 2004 Posts: 812 Location: Texas

Thank for your responses Steve and Herb. Steve, that is a great link you have posted and i will be using it...especially since i've lost my Micky Baker book. Hmmmm, harmonized seventh scale, eh? I'm going to try to understand that somehow. And Steve, i met a guy at the local CD swap shop that is a big jazz head. When i related my deficieny in 50's jazz, he found me Art Blakey/Jazz Messengers "A Night in Tunisia". Two saxes and NO guitars! Who would have ever thunk it? Be God's-scott

Steve · Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:40 am Post subject:

Ferrari 1 · Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:51 am Post subject:

Welcome, brothers Robert and Brian. So glad to have you guys here and I hope you will post and check in frequently. I will echo the sentiments of others; this is a great board with great Christian brothers and sisters.

I have been a professional musician for many years and on the jazz note, have graduated from the Berklee College of Music in Boston. Great jazz school. I chose Berklee over other colleges because they were the only school that taught jazz improvisation. You might have heard of it. My vocation is selling Ferraris. I know, a degree in music and I am reduced to being a low-life used car salesman. Smile

My wife hates it when I say that. She always adds, "but your cars cost $250,000.00".

I play lead guitar in my contemporary church of 5000 in south Florida. I'm 48. My main guitars are a 25th anniversary Les paul 25/50, 40th anniversary Strat, Yamaha SA800 ( jazz guitar), Ovation elec./Acoustic, etc. etc. Recording studio at the house that I spend way too much time in. I use a Boss GT6 processor at church., and I think I'm getting too old for this. But God keeps me in the game.

So glad you guys are here. Post early and post often.
Blessings,
F1

sharring · Tiger Joined: 04 Feb 2004 Posts: 812 Location: Texas

Fmaj7; Gm7; Am7; Bbmaj7; C7; Dm7; Em7b5; and Fmaj7 again (octave).

Steve...so if i'm playing in the key of Fmaj and i start on the 2nd step of the Fmaj scale then i'm in the Dorian mode, is that right? Or i can shift my hand position and play in Gm? And C7 would be Mixolydian? And the Em7b5 would be diminished?-i remember my guitar teacher practicing diminished scales. If this is close then maybe i do kinda know what you are talking about. I just need to think about it in the right way. So when you play in the Dorian mode in Fmaj do you think Fmaj scales and try to resolve to the G-like you are really playing in Gm-or do you think Gm and play Gm arpeggios/licks and shift your hand position or both or what? scott

Steve · Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:45 pm Post subject:

Brian · Pit Bull Joined: 26 Aug 2003 Posts: 373

Wow Steve and Scott, you guys are talking way above me. I can play lines I hear in my head over/against the changes. In fact I love playing over changes like oh, the 2nd half of Take 5 or the "verse" in Ipanema that are different than what you hear in rock/blues/pop. I think of key centers so I know where I need to wind up but If I were to try to think of each chord change individually to try to play a specific scale over it, my head would explode.

I'm really a hack compared to you guys Embarassed

.

sharring · Tiger Joined: 04 Feb 2004 Posts: 812 Location: Texas

Brian, you likely know this stuff-maybe you don't know the name of it but i bet you know what it sounds like. To me, theory is learning about what NOT to play based on percentages. Any note sounds good in context. And i'm sure i can hack better than you!

Steve...the few jazz lessons i've had taught me arpeggos and how to play them over a ii-V-I. I'm totally ignorant regarding the diminished scale.

Also Steve, i didn't really understand your use of the diminished scale. Can i back up a little? If i'm improvising on an Fmaj scale in the key of fmaj (say a one chord vamp) and i start on the note of G (2nd degree of an Fmaj scale) and end on G, playing the same fingering as an Fmaj scale, would that be considered the Dorian mode of the key of F? If so, would this stretch to say, the Em7b5 if i started on the seventh step of the same Fmaj scale? See, i'm trying to see if i can think modally and use the same fingerings. Be God's o jazz sage! scott

Steve · Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 6:26 am Post subject:

Yes, exactly!
ANY of those notes are correct from any of the modes, and as long as the key center remains in F.
The only trouble is, after a while, they start to sound predictable and "safe," unless you hang out in the upper extensions and add quite a bit of rhythmic flair.
That's why extra tension can be added with diminished and whole tone scale fragments, or by shifting to the lydian mode on the tonic (and the rest shift with it).
For instance, across a ii-V-I: diminished ideas across the V chord resolving to the 1. I start on G in F, and play a diminished G arpeggio or fragment when the C7 goes by on the 11-V-I. Diminished scale is whole step-half step-whole step-half step-whole step, etc.
Whole tone scale = whole step - whole step - whole step- whole step, etc.
Try whole step ideas on #9 chords.

Brian, I generally don't try to shift with every chord change to a new way of thinking, but hold it in reserve. I can plug back in if lost, to say, a dorian idea if I see a minor seventh.
Keys centers is where it's at, but also tension and release, so going "out" and back in adds excitement, though usually on slower songs I'm trying to follow a logical musical idea, compositionally. That's the whole point. Playing across changes just are tools to help instant composition, not an end in itself (which it seems to be for so many).