hebrwews 6

ikingtan · Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 2:29 am Post subject: hebrwews 6

i guess this verse always gives christians a lot to talk about. i kinda need help on this too, personally, i believe that a person cannot lose his salvation. how bout you guys? thanks!

"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."

Brian · Pit Bull Joined: 26 Aug 2003 Posts: 373

Did He ever completely forsake Israel after they turned from the Lord to worship other gods? After Israel repented, He restored them. The question should be raised "do we cheapen grace by thinking that we go to heaven no matter what?" "What does the Lord do with that?" I sin, so did Paul and he admitted it. But Paul (and I) are convicted by the Holy Spirit of our sin, confess, ask for forgiveness with a contrite heart, and restoration comes; sometimes with some painful pruning and discipline.

Rom 7:18-20
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
NKJV

Ps 103:11-12
11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him;
12 as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
NIV

James 5:16, 19-20
16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
NKJV

Matt 18:26-27, 33-35
26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, 'Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.'
27 "Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt...
33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?'
34 "And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."
NKJV

ikingtan · Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: hebrwews 6

Brian · Pit Bull Joined: 26 Aug 2003 Posts: 373

Sound like denial of Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit after gaining the knowledge? Perhaps these are parallel passages... (Ouch!)

MK 3:28, 29
28 I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

HEB 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."
31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

ACfixer · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 4:55 am Post subject:

I agree Brian.

I believe when the Bible speaks of an unforgiveable sin it speaks of simply failing to accept Jesus as saviour after gaining the knowledge...

Has God forsaken Israel? I think only in that he has sort of resigned Himself to the realization that His favorite kids are not going to be what he had hoped (some of us can probably relate). The love for them of course never dies but it's kind of like the pastor's kid that gets into drugs or whatever. Of ALL people they should know better but a sinful nature can blind one to the truth.

Brian · Pit Bull Joined: 26 Aug 2003 Posts: 373

I just couldn't stand the suspense anymore so I skipped ahead to the end of the Book... Wink

REV 7:1 -7:8
7:1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.
2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea:
3 "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God."
4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

REV 7:5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

REV 7:6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

REV 7:7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

REV 7:8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

I think that Israel will be the evangelists of the tribulation period.

ikingtan · Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 1:36 am Post subject:

ACfixer · Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 6:03 am Post subject:

ikingtan, thank you for the words of encouragement Smile

I personally do not believe the "unforgiveable sin" can be committed by a true believer in Jesus. To me it wouldn't make any sense but since I am a human and prone to many errors Wink

I offer this passage in support:

John 10:27-29 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand."

God bless,
Lance

ikingtan · Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:04 am Post subject:

markm2553 · Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:58 am Post subject:

I have been wanting to replay to your post from the fist day, but I knew it would take some time and did not want to hurry. I am so glad others have spoken on the text.
I think it helps to look at what the writer of Hebrews is speaking of when he is writing this pasage. If we look back into Chapter five starting at about verse 11 we see that the writer is calling these people to Spiritual Growth. He is unhappy that they have been Christians for so long and yet are still needing the basics taught to them. (ch5 v12) They should be teaching others by now, but don't seem to mature in understanding of right and wrong. It's like these people are playing some big game, It's like the guy that plans to kill his wife, but plans to ask God to forgive him after so everything will be alright. The writer seems to be warning these people that this can not continue. God wants them to bear crops (ch6 v7- Cool

. And grow in their faith. (ch6 v12)

I do think the Bible teaches that people can "backslide" and lose their relationship with Christ and be "lost". I think the story of the soil found in Matt. ch 13 shows this. And the story of the unforgiving debtor in Matt ch 18 starting at v21 shows this. There are many more, I think Judus was not always lost.

Romans 10:9-11 says it all

Believe is an action word see 2cor 5:15 ( I'm not talking about works )

I still ran out of time...

God rules,

ikingtan · Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:27 am Post subject:

thanks mark!

so we could backslide... and lose our salvation... Question

markm2553 · Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 6:29 am Post subject:

Yes, I think the Bible teaches we can lose our salvation, when we choose to turn from Christ. But I agree, it would be very hard for someone to commit the unforgivable sin. You would have to believe and understand the Holy Spirit to speak from your heart against Him. Most that would dare do this, would be unbelievers that did not understand what they where doing. Later if they excepted Christ into their life, they could be forgiven. If you are able to feel guilt that you might have, then you didn't.

Matthew CH12 v31 KJV:
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

ACfixer · Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 6:58 am Post subject:

I must respectfully disagree.

Our salvation does not fade in and out like a bad radio station that only rewards us when we stand in a certain place. I believe Romans 10 teaches us just the opposite, BUT our salvation needs to be real from the start. Can we say that a backslider that goes back to doing a little too much drinking has lost his salvation? No? Then what about someone who quits going to church and starts drinking beer in front of the TV to watch football on Sunday instead? Has he/she lost their salvation? Is it a backsliding heart that loses it? At what point?

God is not the author of confusion. I see no evidence in the Bible of anyone losing their salvation yet I see plenty of evidence that those who merely confessed the name and had true faith in Jesus got saved as Romans 10:9 says (the thief on the cross tha confessed Him got saved but the one who shunned the Holy Spirit did not). And in verse 11 it says As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will NEVER be put to shame." Now I don't know about any of the rest of you but the word NEVER in that sentence really stands out. It doesn't say "If you have trusted in Him then start backsliding I will put you to shame..."

One cannot come to Jesus unless called by the Holy Spirit to do so. Once you are called by the Holy Spirit (which to me means you have heard the Gospel news of Jesus Christ crucified and risen again), then you are accountable for that info. If you choose not to believe what the Holy Spirit has brought to you then you in reality call Him a liar and are guilty of blasphemy of the Spirit. When you stand before God one day (as we ALL will), you either have Jesus there to intervene and be your lawyer or you don't and if you dont then that is unforgiveable. Once we have Jesus in our heart He says he will NEVER leave us or forsake us.

Now by salvation, I mean for real... not some canned prayer that you say to try and save your butt, then go back to life as it was before. When JESUS enters your heart a HUGE change will take place in the way you think, act, and believe. You CANNOT be the same person you were before or your acceptance of Him was not genuine. Jesus comes in and cleans house... sometimes quickly and sometimes more slowly but he comes in as lord and master, not as a buddy you allow to hang out with you for awhile.

I believe once you are truly saved you are His forever. Once we are saved we are forgiven for all sins... And I DO think Judas was always lost. The Bible says at one point a devil entered him and put it in his heart to betray Him. If he was a true believer, there would have been no room for the devil to enter.

On the point of the unforgiving debtor... he was granted forgiveness and yet he showed no change in his heart or in his life and was unwilling to forgive others. That is exactly what I am talking about, you cannot say you want forgiveness and then go back to life as it was. He never really accepted the gift of being forgiven, only was he willing to be free of the monetary obligation and yet he still felt others owed him, nothing had changed in his heart!!! If he had truly accepted the gift and not just the dollar amount, he could not help but pass that gift on to others because he would have felt the beauty of the gift.

markm2553 · Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:25 am Post subject:

AC, I think we will have to agree to disagree on this point. Just have people of faith have for many years now.
I just cannot hold to the Calvanist view point of once saved always saved. I find too many points in the Bible to see otherwise. We both agree that we should walk in the light as He is on the Light. Once we have excepted Christ into our heart there is a change in us. But there are too many that fall away once they hear the Word and start down the right path. To your veiw point they where never really saved at all to start with. But then how would anyone know they where saved? Right now I seek His direction in my life, teach His Word, working daily to be more like Jesus. He is the Lord of my life. What if two years from now I turn away from Him? I know His laws, what He wants me to do, but I start refusing to do it. Does that mean I was never saved to start with? I have seen Pastors that have been in a right relationship with God for years, had very fuitfull ministries, reached the lost... Only to wind up losing it all in some affair or "mishandling" of Church funds. You have heard the stories, perhaps you know someone. Does that mean they where never right with Christ to start with. I just can't find the assurance of our salvation in that. I agree HE will NEVER forsake us, but we can forsake HIM. No one will goto Hell by accident, you will know what you are doing when you do it.
This is something we should never have to speak of anyway. Our goals for the kingdom are the same, winning the lost. And we both agree, we are saved by grace, not by works less anyman should boast. Christ does all the work, we don't save anyone. He died for our sin, rose again, he changes the hearts and lives and best of all He does all the Judging!

God bless,

ACfixer · Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:41 am Post subject:

Mark, we don't disagree as much as you might think Smile

It would take forever to sort out these small details via the net, I'll explain it to you when we meet in heaven Very Happy

You are correct in saying we are to walk in the light and strive to win souls to Jesus!