Need Some Input on - Women Worship Leaders

Meridian · House Cat Joined: 02 Dec 2002 Posts: 154

Hey, I'm just taking matdvd's advice and generating some discussion.

Seriously, I need some input from other knowledgeable Christians on this question: Should women lead praise & worship in a church service?

Before we go discussion the question, my usuall process for exegetical analyses starts with prayer, asking God to give me some insight or revelation, then finding some salient scriptures, opening the Strong's and going from there. Sometimes I do "vector checks" with commentaries, sometimes not. Typically, once I've gotten some cogent thoughts together, I bounce them off other Christians I know.

Now, back to the question. I've been hashing through an exegetical analysis in an attempt to identify all the relevant moving parts related to the question (1 Tim 2:12-14, etc.), and I think I'm okay there. The proscription regarding women in authority isn't a cultural matter (as Paul tied it to the nature of the created order, not a societal preference). I think the answer to the original question hinges on whether or not a praise & worship leader in front of a group of people exercises authority (authenteō as Paul identifies it in 1 Timothy) (the teaching proscription isn't really an issue here). I think there's good precedent set in the Old Testament making a case for praise & worship as an exercise of authority.

What do you folks think?

Please, keep this in mind as you reply: "Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another,..." Eph 4:31-32

TIA for the replies,

Mer

Barnabas Bud

We can never fully know the mind of God. We will never fully understand His methods or His ways. We must trust in Him and go where He leads us. With that, I've always subscribed to the philosophy that, "God calls whomever He chooses...male or female". I know there is direction given by Timothy, but those letters were written to a specific group of people to address a specific issue. I personally have no problem with women in leadership roles.

matdvd

Hey Mer,

Thanks for the discussion!

I'm afraid that you seem to be more studied on this subject, so any insight I may have might be total speculation or emotion.

Where I agree that where the Word seems to prohibit women in authoritative positions, regardless of culture, in regards to praise and worship, I don't see where one could imply authority from that position.

Great question. Any other insight on this ladies and gentleman??

~Mindy~ · Tadpole Joined: 21 Aug 2002 Posts: 22 Location: canada

hmmm...
well God is no respecter of persons, he sees neither male nor female but i'm not really suer where i stand on this one. i mean when He asid make a joyful noise until to the Lord, he wasmt just implying the males and leading song service is a part of worship. i guess it just comes down to the person and their attitude. i mean, a woman needs to know her place, to know that the man is head over her and all and if they're like trying to take over a position of authority, well.....the woman is the weaker vessel....sigh, i'll stop rambling now, lol

------------------
God Bless,
~Mindy~

ACfixer

Look at it this way... Do you think Satan wants women leading worship? No. If women are leading worship I think there are far worse things they could be doing! It MAY be a signal that the men in that church need to get off their hind ends and get busy because the women are filling their shoes, that might be the greater issue.

The Bible says its not for women to speak in church which I interpret as preaching. Now I would not want a woman leading the church in a pastoral sense but I can tell you that I have watched Joyce Meyers many times on TV and I benefit from her teaching.

The instruction that a woman should keep silent in church I think, as I said, is a two edged sword. Women might only feel the need to step up because men are not doing their job, or it may be that women aren't accepting their roll. Either way that is an indication of a problem.

I certainly think it's better to have a woman leading worship than to have no worship at all

Michael D

I believe scripture tells us that we all have been blessed with gifts with which we should glorify God. Certainly many women have the gift of music for worship, and many have the gift of leadership as well.

I'd be uncomfortable, personally, with a female head pastor / primary preacher - though I know of other believers who are OK with that. I don't think I'd be uncomfortable with a female leading worship.

I honestly don't understand Paul's statement in 1 Tim 2:11-12 as an "absolute" proscription against any significant role for women in the church. Certainly Deborah, the old testament judge / prophetess, exercised authority over men and was a Godly leader. Guess I don't fully understand what Paul was saying....

Mike

matdvd

Good discussion!

Bates15 · Moderator Joined: 19 Feb 2002 Posts: 1084

I let my wife, a worship leader herself awnser this on if you dont mind.... Let her read the remarks first....

Bates15 · Moderator Joined: 19 Feb 2002 Posts: 1084

Well here I finally am.
I've been leading worship now for about 7 or 8 years and there where times that I've been wondering about this also.

But I can honestly say that I feel the call of God upon my life to do this and in the times that I'm not leading worship I feel like I'm failing God, because I'm not doing what He called me to do.

In this I also feel strenghtened by Acts 2: 17&18 where God says that He will pour out His Spirit on His servants, both men and women.

So I will say that I do believe that a woman can lead worship. Not only because the men are not doing their job( love that comment ), sometimes that is the case!
God bless
Maris

Meridian · House Cat Joined: 02 Dec 2002 Posts: 154

Boy, this has generated some good response!

And a big "Thanks!" to everyone who is providing input. I want to respond to some of the points that were brought up and clarify some of what I wrote previously.

· As Barnabas Bud pointed out, we can never fully know the mind of God or ever fully understand His ways ("seeing through a glass darkly" as it were). However, God has given us Scripture, and by that He reveals Himself and gives us principles by which He expects us to live. I think most of us would agree with this as it provides the foundation for our faith.

· Barnabus Bud also points out, correctly I think, that a lot of the Epistles in the New Testament were written to specific groups of Christians that usually had unique social or cultural circumstances. While it is true that many instructions therein were meant to address specific issues unique to the recipients (e.g. Paul's intructions regarding the Gifts of the Spirit in 1 Cor 14) there are also univeral principles and instructions in the Epistles that apply to all Christians everywhere, all the time (e.g. Rom 3 and almost all of James).

· In determining what principles/instructions in the New Testament should apply to all Christians everywhere, all the time, you have to - as with most things Scriptural - look at context. I really don't want to get down in the theological weeds on this as more learned people than I have written volumes on the topic, so I'll summarize: One method for determining whether or not a principle/instruction applies to all Christians everywhere, all the time, is to see if it is tied to the nature of things, i.e. God's created order, nature, His Creation. A good example of this is the prohibition against murder. Not only is it proscribed in the Mosaic Law (Exodus 20:13), but it is also contray to the created order (Gen 4:10). To me, the proscription against women in authority in 1 Tim 2 is tied to the nature of things (v13-14), Eve being the "weaker partner" (1 Peter 3:7). So, in my mind, because the proscription in 1 Tim is tied to God's created order, it is a principle that applies to all Christians everywhere, all the time. I hope that helps clarify Michael D's concern.

· Lastly - and I say (type) this with all the humility I can convey through a keyboard - just because we can offer a God-given talent or sacrifice to God doesn't mean that it is necessarily good or right to do so. We know this from Samuel's admonishment to Saul - "To obey is better than sacrifice" (1 Sam 15:22). God would rather we obey His principles than offer a sacrifice that violates them. So, as that pertains to our discussion - and, again, I present this with much humility - just because women may have musical talents or gifts does not mean they should be used in violation of the principle laid out in 1 Tim 2.

I believe, as Matdvd pointed out, the original question hinges on whether or not a praise & worship leader is exercising authority of the authenteō variety. I still haven't been able to get my brain around that definition in its entirety, and there's not a real good Hebrew equivalent in the Old Testament that I have been able to find.

Again, thanks in advance for all the replies.

Mer

matdvd

Boy this has been a real good discussion!

You know it's good when we all want to meditate on it and chew on it for awhile.

Excellent point regarding our abilities not necessarily meaning our okay to do so.

I hope we can be led by God to find more meaningful topics that He will bring to our minds!

SHOE-ZX

HEY BRO,DOES THIS HELP? MARY MAGDELIN,SHE WAS ABOUT TO BE STONED.AFTER ACTS 1 WHEN JESUS RISES BACK TO HEAVEN,DONT WE ALL THINK SHE WAS A POWERFUL VOICE FOR CHRIST AFTER THIS,VERY WELL SHE WAS. PAUL HAD WOMEN FRIENDS AND THERE HUSBANDS AS HELPERS IN MINISTRY.SEE THE PATTERN?IF THE HEART IS THERE, I THINK CHRIST WILL USE YOU ,AS HE SEES YOU ,AS A BEST SPOT TO FILL IN A HOLE.MAKE SOME KINDA SENCE? HOPE THIS HELPED!!!SEAN....

matdvd

Thx Sean!

Michael D

I guess my latest thoughts on this have to do with legalism. It seems that we, as fallible humans, just seem to "need" to set up rules so we can evaluate our own and others' performance against those rules.

The #1 message from Jesus' teaching in the New Testament - to me - is that it's all about our relationship with Him. Certainly Jesus made clear His objection to the overemphasis of the religious leaders on rules of behavior. The "rules" and the Law only serve to show us that we can't make it on our own and we need God's grace - as provided through our relationship with His Son.

I would err on the side of less dependence on "rules" (legalism?) and more dependence on our relationship with Jesus Christ. I think proper behavior and proper worship will emanate from that focus.

some additional thoughts from Paul....

quote:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:28
The old ways of valuing and classifying people are no longer valid! In Christ, we are members of one body.
I will pour out My Spirit on all people. Your sons and your daughters will prophesy.
Acts 2:17
Since the Spirit’s coming at Pentecost, every member of the body has been given a gift, and called to minister. Even the gift of prophecy, which Paul identified as very important (see 1 Cor. 12:27–30), is shared by women!
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchrea. … She has been a great help to many people, including me.
Romans 16:1
Paul not only valued women, but he recognized them as eligible to hold office in the church. In the same context he called Priscilla and Aquila “my fellow workers in Christ” (v. 3).
Richards, L., & Richards, L. O. (1987). The teacher's commentary.

Mike

markm2553

Hope it's not to late to post on this.
Read Exodus 16:20

God is cool,