Judas Iscariot II

Brother T · Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2002 8:53 am Post subject: Judas Iscariot II

The character of Judas Isacriot is a strange one. He exist as a very one dimensional character. Judas was predestined to betray Jesus. He has no choice but follow that dark destiny that was planed for him by God. He exemplifes a character that God created for the sole purpose of fulfilling his plans.

question
why did Judas steal money from the bag? (john 12:6)
What were his motives?....Did not Jesus took care of all the desciples needs....did Jesus not feed Judas?...
Judas exhibits no guilt toward stealing...but then felt guilty because he had betrayed Jesus?...

During the meal the devil enter Judas and then he goes and report Jesus to the pharisees...shouldn't the devil keep Jesus from the cross?...

Jesus curse the one that was going to betray him, he says, "Woe to that man who betrays the son of Man! it would be better for him if he had not been born." Mark 14:21. But scripture says that jesus will be betrayed by one of his close friends. So there had to be someone like Judas to commite the act. Judas had no choice but to betray Jesus, otherwise scripture would not be fulfill. Why did Jesus condem Judas, when he had no choice but to betray Jesus?....

Hope someone can give this some though and maybe pass on the questions.

matdvd · Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2002 5:44 pm Post subject: Judas Iscariot II

Wow. What's the "T" for? Tough?? hehehe.

This will take some pondering of the evidence as well...

ACfixer · Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2002 8:49 pm Post subject: Judas Iscariot II

Noooo No noooo! That's like saying that the 9-11 hijackers had no choice but to crash into the buildings and kill thousands. After all, God knows all that will happen right. Yes of course He does, but WE don't. We are presented with choices and Judas was no different, he had a choice and he chose to betray Jesus. If he did not, somebody else would have. The Devil puts lots of things in my mind that I don't do, I choose to do the right thing most of the time.

The Devil would try to keep Jesus from coming back from the dead perhaps, but the idea of killing him on the cross was pure evil and straight from Satan. Satan does NOT know all, he is NOT the "equal but opposite" of God, but the enemy of God who is blinded by his own arrogance and desire to be worshipped. Seeing Christs vicory over death makes him jealous beyond measure and he will try to imitate it one day causing millions to worship him as he desires. Read the book of Revelation...

Why did Judas steal when his needs are already met? The same reason somebody wealthy like Winona Ryder or most anybody else shoplifts. They get "high" off the thrill and it makes them feel like they have some power, and eventually it will get them noticed be it for good or bad. They desire attention which is a trickle-down of Satan desiring more attention than he was getting in heaven at one time.

Michael D · Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2002 6:49 pm Post subject: Judas Iscariot II

I probably won't do it justice, but I read somewhere (maybe C.S. Lewis) a description of Jesus' entering into "time" as a man - fully human, but still fully God - that was helpful to me.

The description said that, if all of time, from the creation to the end of the world (time as we know it) was recorded on a piece of paper, we should picture God being above that piece of paper looking at it. Remember, He *created* time because He existed before time started and will exist after time, as we know it, will end. He can see everything that ever has or ever will happen. He can exercise as much control as He wants over the tiniest details, but He still allows us free will to make our own decisions. He didn't create us to be robots. We couldn't love Him if we didn't have free will *not* to love Him. So, when Jesus entered into time and lived here for 33 years, He had already seen all that would ever happen. But like Lance said, Judas' decisions were his own. He wasn't a robot. Jesus just knew what was going to happen - and He still went through with it so that you and I could be saved and could spend eternity with Him.

Also, like Lance said, Satan is a created being. God is the creator. Even the angels were given free will so that they could love Him (remember, you can't love if you don't have a choice). Satan chose not to love God and he will pay for that for all of eternity.

Whew. Deep stuff. Good question Brother T.

ACfixer · Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2002 10:13 pm Post subject: Judas Iscariot II

Yes, excellent questions.

No true love without a choice to not love. That is the whole thing in a nutshell

The time and predestination thing is a great mystery to us. I believe as Mike said, that our mind is just not capable of reasoning that transcends time and space, yet these are both things that God MADE. The example my brain draws up is the old saying "Don't try to teach a pig to sing, it will waste your time and irritate the pig". Obviously the swine lacks the vocal chords neccessary to sing, to say nothing of the fact he could never understand what singing or a song even is. No matter how musically gifted you think the pig might be he will still never know anything about geography except his own little space from the barn to the trough, that's his whole world because he has no ability to see beyond the barnyardfence.

We're like this with God, he could tell us but we would never grasp the concept of time and space as HE knows it

Sixstring · Kitten Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 140

AC: Excellent response. I agree completely that Judas had a choice and was not created as destined to betray Christ and destined the Hell.

I've also heard the theory that Judas was actually in God's will by fulfilling the betrayal. But that one is simply not scriptural.

Judas was a greedy, foolish, weak man, who allowed Satan to enter and control him. And in typical fashion, once Satan was finished with him, he pulled back and let Judas feel the weight of his choices. The fact that Jesus knew ahead of time what would happen doesn't mean it was Jesus' decision. Judas made his own choices.

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The Devil puts lots of things in my mind that I don't do, I choose to do the right thing most of the time.

I love your honesty.

Peace

[This message has been edited by Sixstring (edited March 10, 2002).]

Brother T · Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2002 1:29 pm Post subject: Judas Iscariot II

whoa...thanks for the reply...haven't been here in a while...

First things
Micheal you said that "Jesus just knew what was going to happen - and He still went through with it so that you and I could be saved and could spend eternity with Him."

1.Jesus knew hat Judas was the one that was going to betrayed him.

so Judas chose to betrayed?
If jesus knew that Judas would chose to betrayed, Why didn't he say to Judas, "hey Judas...i know that the devil will come and tempt you to betray me...don't let him do that to you.." That would have saved Judas I believed..

Now Judas is one of the 12 disciples...Jesus close friends...I don't know about you but i would give anything to be a part of the twelve. It goes against all human logic, how Judas was with Jesus yet refuse to believe that he is GOd....strange

2.If someone comes in a building and kills everyone...ok that may be his choice
But for Judas he was bounded by the word of God.
The bible predict that one of his close friends will betray him...so it has to be one of the twelve. If there weren't someone to betray Jesus, them the word wouldn't be fulfilled.

What i am saying is that there has to be a Judas...a traitor to Jesus...and God created the character of Judas to do just that....
To say that Judas chose to betrayed Jesus, is a weak statement to me...the Word binded his faith

Its so hard to talk over message boards...grrr...
well i did my best...
My name is Thien...you can call me Brother T

ACfixer · Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2002 2:20 pm Post subject: Judas Iscariot II

Brother T my friend

Judas fulfilled prophesy and Jesus knew he would. But asking why Jesus did not stop him is like asking why God does not stop hijackers and child molesters. We must choose for ourselves to do the right thing, if we had no choice to do the right thing and love God then it would not be love but instinct. God knew all along it would be Judas but Judas did not grow up knowing this. The word says Judas aked why the costly oil was poured over Jesus' head rather than be sold for money to give to the poor. Then the word states that Judas asked this not to help the poor, but because he was a thief and also the treasurer for the group. This tells me Judas never did aknowledge that Jesus was God or he would not steal from his very ministry. Judas chose to be a greedy fool and possibly used his discipleship as cover-up for his thieving ways. I see no mention of a "friendship" between Judas and Jesus, a disciple is a follower, a student. It seems Jesus became good friends with John, Peter and James but not much mention is made of the other disciples and their day to day closeness with Him.

Brother T · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2002 6:45 pm Post subject: Judas Iscariot II

AcFixer,
How could you say that there is free choice, if Jesus already knew of the future. The future was already formed. Thus there is no choice but to follow it. The future was shaped by the word of God. Therefore Judas could not chose otherwise.

Here is the analogy
A man is walking down the road and he hit a fork split the road. He has to choose to go right or lef. I predict he goes turns left...because i have seen many people go left.
Now jesus looks at that and say that when the man hits the fork he'll go right.
Who is right?..Of course Jesus
Since Jesus can't be wrong, the man's option have been reduced to only right. For if he choose left that would make Jesus wrong. Don't you see that he can't choose otherwise?...because Jesus predicted it...and Jesus can't be wrong
1.The premise that God can't never be wrong reduces his option

Now Jesus chose 12 disciples to be his close friends. We know by the word that he has many followersl, but he only chose 12 to be his close ones. The 12 slept beside Jesus, and they ate with him...and he shared with them intimate moments..that i am sure not recorded, for its impossible to record every conversation.
Now to say that judas didn't beleive in God is hard for me to swallow. It doesn't make any sense the way Judas reject God. Was his eyes blinded to the miracles. Did he not see Lazarus?..did he not ate from the bread that Jesus used to feed the 5000?...Now to say that he witnessed all of this and rejected Jesus, is to say that Judas was not human...for he had no sense of Logic, or grasp on reality. But we know that he did have a grasp on reality, for he was greedy and stole from the bag. Do you see my argument?...His character is lopsided..one dimensional...and like I said most strange.

ACfixer · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2002 8:21 pm Post subject: Judas Iscariot II

BrotherT, look at it this way. If you could see the future and knew what was going to happen you could make that arguement for everything including the 9-11 hijackers. God knew it was going to happen, so are you saying they had no choice but to dive-bomb airliners full of people into even more innocents?

As far as Judas believing in God because of the miracles he saw... The Pharisees knew Laz to be a dead man yet saw he was brought back to life. Some believed and some did not. The Pharisees saw the healed paralytic and yet instead of believing, they sought to kill or at the very least kick him and Jesus out of town. Seeing is not believing, at least not for everybody. Just because Judas saw miracles did not make him a believer that Jesus was God. He could easily have believed in God yet not believe Jesus was God, alot of people did and still do all of that. Even those who work at churches, even some ministers don't know Christ and they have no doubt seen miracles unfold before their eyes. Go figure, but people still steal from the offering plate. Judas had made his plans well before Satan entered him after supper that night. Satan entered Judas because he had decided on his own to betray Jesus and Satan was only too willing to go along for the ride.

Like I say, you could use that arguement to say "why would God create people He knows are going to hell even before they are born? Because we have a choice to go to hell or not. God does already know what we will decide but he does not make anybody decide to choose Jesus, that would be robotic and not love. God is love. My very good friend Dan is on the road to being the nicest guy in all of hell, he is honest, nice, faithful in his family, everything "good" except he won't accept Jesus. I don't know if he will someday, I truly pray he does but I have no clue. God does but He's not telling. Dan therefore has a choice to make right now. If he rejects, God knew it, if he accepts, God knew it. Dan uses your same arguement to say there is no reason to accept Christ because God already knows whether he will or will not. Could you tell any person not to accept Jesus based on this BrotherT? Personally I could not and I don't believe for a second you could either. You have free will to do whatever you choose, you will not choose the option of going on a killing spree tomorrow although you most certainly could. Either way God knows which YOU will choose so if you do it does it mean you had no choice?

Bless you BrotherT!

matdvd · Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2002 1:04 am Post subject: Judas Iscariot II

Brother T,

I will have to fully agree with Lance's comments. What you are contemplating is a circular argument. A catch 22 if you will.

If God's knowledge of the future, effects it's outcome, than we never had a choice, and justice would not be satisfied. And if God isn't just, then that just opens up yet another monsterous can of worms. We know without a doubt that He is just, so full ability to choose is given to us. So much so, that because of God's decision to allow us to decide our destiny, that instead of just destroying all those who choose not to be His children into nothingness, He allows all of them to live for eternity in a place void of Himself, or His light. A place of forever darkness, where all those there will be eternally remorseful (weeping), and angry (knashing of teeth), of their foolish choice they made. If He just wiped them out, it would take away from their worth and value as a creature that never had a full choice. God does truly love us that much...

Hope it helps my brother. Have a great day!

ACfixer · Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2002 1:13 pm Post subject: Judas Iscariot II

God said somebody would betray him, but I don't recall Him naming anybody before Jesus did at supper. Jesus did point him out at that time but Judas had already sealed the deal by that time.

We know God to be fair and loving, nothing but that. We must assume then Judas had as much opportunity to not do it right?

BrotherT, I think your position here is a very intriguing one, one I have pondered many times! I questioned the whole thing with Job for years. God KNEW he would win and He knew Job would stand by Him, so WHY did he let Job go through that horror? I still don't know that I am satisfied with the answers to that question! I DO know however that God is fair and just so when I cannot understand something I don't know I must rely on what I DO know....

Sixstring · Kitten Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 140

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Judas was predestined to betray Jesus. He has no choice but follow that dark destiny that was planed for him by God. He exemplifes a character that God created for the sole purpose of fulfilling his plans.

Brother T, if you use that argument, you can't just limit it to Judas. It would have to apply to all 12 disciples.

In Mt. 26:31 Jesus tells that they will all disown Him. So they would have all had to be predestined for that task.

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If jesus knew that Judas would chose to betrayed, Why didn't he say to Judas, "hey Judas...i know that the devil will come and tempt you to betray me...don't let him do that to you.." That would have saved Judas I believed..

Mt. 26:36-46 shows Jesus telling his disciples repeatedly to pray, at one point to, "pray so that you will not fall into temptation", but they didn't heed His words. He knew they wouldn't, so He predicted it earlier (Mt. 26:31), but He still gave them the choice and the weapon (prayer) to avoid failure. They made their choice and gave in to human weakness. Knowing this ahead of time doesn't mean Jesus left them no choice. He plead with them to pray. He wouldn't have given them a false promise, telling them they could avoid falling into temptation if they truly had no choice. Had they prayed instead of sleeping, God would have been true to His promise and strengthened them for the coming test.

I don't believe it would have made any difference to tell Judas ahead of time. It didn’t make any difference to the other eleven.

Predestination has nothing to do with whether or not we will be saved, but what will happen to those who are. Those who accept are predestined to be “conformed to His likeness”, but they still have to be called and choose for themselves.

Brother T · Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2002 9:56 pm Post subject: Judas Iscariot II

Acfixer,
My prediction of the future is different from that of God

The premise that we are making are:
1.God knows all
2.God can never be wrong

The argument is:
God knows what you are going to choose.
We don't know what god knows about our decision or future.
So techically we are still free to chose, or shape our future

The fallacy occurs when God reveals to us what we are going to choose. God said that Judas will choose to betray him. Can Judas choose otherwise. No. why?. Because that would prove God wrong.

Brother T · Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2002 8:08 pm Post subject: Judas Iscariot II

Hey guys, thank you all for the responses it really help me in reflecting on things from different angles.
Well I have come to accept the situation that Judas did choose to deny God. I came to this realization when i thought about how Peter chose to deny God. Jesus predicted it. But we all know that Peter is someone who is very strong in the faith. But still, it was he who chose to deny God not that God bouded him to that faith.

Well, I guess God really reveals his words to those who truly seeks it.

Peace out