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George E
Big Hamster
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 92
Location: Pittsburgh
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 Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| J Dan Brown wrote: | | George, please forgive me for being such a poor communicator. I must be if you could interpret anything I said above to say that I believed that all the characters in Christ's parables were folks that had walked this earth. What I meant to say was that I believe God's word to be inerrant, pefect, without mistakes, not filled with secret codes and It is alive and is promised to me as a believer to be revealed to me, through much prayer and meditation on it, as I can understand it. I believe that God created everything, foretold and fulfilled a promised son, born of a virgin, died on a cross and rose and ascended to be with His Father and left the Holy Spirit and His words as our guide. He knew every moment in all our lives before He hung the stars in place. None of that is a fable or fairy tale! His Word is filled with nothing but truth, and I doubt my thoughts can be shaken on that! |
Perhaps I was too subtle. I used the New Testament parables as examples, but the Old Testament parables are similar. Take the two different stories of Creation in Genesis. Though the two of them don't match each other, and contradict each other in a few significant details, the reveal the truth that God created the universe. The use of "day" as a metaphor for time periods of millions (or billions) of years doesn't change the fundamental truth that God created all that is.
| J Dan Brown wrote: | | I believe God to be sovereign, and hasn't allowed any mistranlations that really matter to occur. I don't believe we will ever have a President that as part of his inauguration speech says "America, Jesus loves me, He loves you too! How do I know this for sure? Because the Bible tells me so!" I think it would be great, but I don't expect it. Because most Christians in this country are too meek to stand up and be counted. I can only hope and pray that I am and act as God intended! That probably wasn't very clear either, and I am sorry. |
I don't believe that there were any serious mistranslation made in any of the various Bible translations at the time the translations were made. If you were alive in 1611, and spoke the dialect of English in common use at that time, the King James Version translation would be spot-on correct and without significant error. However, almost four centuries later, words that meant one thing in 1611 mean something different today. For example, the word "suffer" back then means "permit" today. When Jesus says, in the KJV "suffer the little children to come unto me", his statement had nothing to do with bearing pain or anguish, which "suffer" does mean in 2007. In 1611, "charity" was an emotional feeling that might lead one to give alms to the poor. Today, "charity" means the alms themselves. That changes the meaning of Corinthians a bit!
As for a President making the statement you describe, that comes perilously close to the Pharisee praying loudly in a public place so that all who hear him will admire him for being pious. I wouldn't be surprised for a President to make such a statement in a private interview for television. There is a time and a place for everything. And a time for every purpose under heaven.
| J Dan Brown wrote: | | I was once told that the interwoven three rings in the front of my "New King James" version is an ancient celtic symbol representing witches or something. It's like The original King James is all that is true. I can't accept that. I make it a point to compare all of the 5 most quoted versions to improve my understanding. Maybe that means I am stupid. Anyway I apologize for not being clear, if I wasn't. Perhaps I should offer less words and just read more and be careful that I am always understood. The old man in me wants to view some of this as a petty, argumentative, twisting of my words, but the new man can rejoice and feel loved. The old man wants to be reminded of those other guitar forums that I fled from, but the new man wants to fit in and maybe have his intelligence, faith and understanding of the big, important picture respected, if even for a tiny bit, although he is pretty ignorant. But some call me a dreamer. (heavy sigh) |
When coming up with a graphical symbol for the Trinity, it's quite easy to accidentally stumble on a design that might have meant something else to a different culture at a different time. Native Americans sometimes used a symbol identical to a Nazi swastika centuries before Hitler was born. It was just a coincidence.
As for your understanding, belittling it is not my intention. In forums like these, I respond to posts, not to the people who post them. I pay little attention to whose name is attached to the posts I respond to. One thing I do think all Christians need to do is to rely on all the resources that God provides for understanding. The various translations of the Holy Bible are the most important source of understanding, but they aren't the only source. God has inspired and called some to be scholars of Scripture.
These people have been given the gifts and talents to understand and to communicate their understanding of scripture. Their writings and commentaries on Scripture have the same kind of inspiration of the Holy Spirit that was given to those who made translations, or those who are called to preach sermons. If one feels inadequate in one's ability to understand subtle nuances of Scripture and theology, one shouldn't hesitate to turn to books written by theologians that help one's understanding. A lack of knowledge is only something to be ashamed of if one refuses to attempt to change that situation. |
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J Dan Brown
Kitten
Joined: 18 Nov 2007
Posts: 147
Location: Elm Grove, LA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:28 am Post subject: |
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George, I would take my way, anyday! God's Word revealed to me as He intended, rather than by some prideful educator setting me straight, juggling jits and tittles, convinced that his way is the only correct way and that he knows more about it than anyone on Earth. (not you mind you, but other people I have known that you may remind me of a tiny bit) And I don't, nor does any Christian I know believe that "suffer the little children" refers to a lashing with a cat-of-nine-tails and I don't think you thought I did! I asked about it as a child and it was explained to me, much better and with much more kindness and understanding. Most Bibles have notes and translation helps in the margins for confusing stuff like that.
I regret that even my feeble attempt at mild and kind sarcasm failed. I suppose that I just need to stay away from discussions that I know absolutely nothing about. My life is confusing enough. Mostly what Dan needs to be happy is the love (excuse me, Charity) that's explained in 1 Cor. 13.
George, you somehow bring out feelings in me that frighten me. I am reminded of a Casting Crowns song, "East to West" which states:
"Here I am, Lord, and I'm drowning in a sea of forgetfulness.
The chains of yesterday surround me and I yearn for peace and rest.
I don't want to end up where You found me, and it echoes in my mind.
And keeps me awake at night.
I know You've cast my sins as far as the East is from the West.
And I can stand before You now, as though I've never sinned.
But, today I feel like I'm just one mistake away from You leaving me this way.
Jesus, can You show me just how far...
... the East is from the West!"
I can't bear to see the man I've been, rising up in me again.
In the arms of Your mercy, I'll find rest.
You know just how far the East is from the West, from one scarred hand to the other!"
So guys, I may have to back up and take inventory of all this and I may be lurking myself for a while in the background. I am much too reminded of the type of senseless and unkind debate and discussions I had fled from earlier at other forums I was involved with. My armour still may be toughened, as I still feel a call. Only God knows. Anyone need a chord or a lyric, call me. I'm gonna go read 1 Corinthians 13, so I'll be back!
So immeasureably blessed, in spite of himself, J. Dan Brown |
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markm2553
Moderator
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Posts: 1006
Location: Marengo, IN USA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:16 am Post subject: |
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I’m still not ready to talk candidates, but as to some of the other statements made.
Scripture never contradicts itself; it is only our lack of understanding that would make us think so.
While I might use commentaries and seek advise and direction from more mature Christians than myself, my first direction comes from the Holy Spirit as I read the Word.
I have faith that God can, will, and does do this for others as well, even if they happen to be an elected official.
Praying before anyone and everyone is not what is condemned in Matt chapter six; it is praying to be seen by men. That means motive, God knows a man’s motive, I’m happy to leave that between them.
(I'm not pointing this out for our benifit, but the unbeliever that might be reading)
As my signature on other guitar forums reads:
It's freedom of religion, not from it.
We should be able to disagree on many things as Christians and still remain in fellowship.
Politics is a touchy subject and many forums will not even allow it, but so is religion, and we normally handle that without too much trouble… 
I think this thread is a good test to see how we handle ourselves in public when we don’t all agree on something. I would like to see we mature Christian’s make this an example of how it can be done. 
I would hate to have to delete this thread this early in the race.  |
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sharring
Tiger
Joined: 04 Feb 2004
Posts: 813
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for getting involved Bro Mark. Your advice is always welcome. George E i've read your subsequent posts. Many of them seem to involve vague fears where you create scenario's such as "What scares me is a politician exercising power based on believing the Bible is all true..." Maybe specific examples of certain politicians behavior would help to address those fears. By better defining a problem solutions (or at least courses of action) start to present themselves.
I've been trying to read more on Huckabee. He has had some ethics questions raised during his time as governor of Arkansas. Alligations included using public funds for personal transportation and removing furniture from the governor's mansion. At one time he ran for governor and his wife ran for lieutenant governor  He won-she didn't. I've even read something where his son was disciplined for hanging a dog. I'm trying to say that i am by no means sold on the guy. His public stance on Christianity is what caught my attention.
J Dan-When i read your posts i was reminded of James 1:9 and 2:5. |
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George E
Big Hamster
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 92
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| sharring wrote: | | George E i've read your subsequent posts. Many of them seem to involve vague fears where you create scenario's such as "What scares me is a politician exercising power based on believing the Bible is all true..." Maybe specific examples of certain politicians behavior would help to address those fears. |
At this point in the campaign, months before the Pennsylvania primary (my first opportunity to vote), I have not yet sufficiently studied Huckabee's positions in enough detail to be able to list specific examples of his positions that would cause me to not support him based on his religious beliefs. Those positions might not even exist. And, he might be eliminated from the race before my state's primary.
Speaking in a broad, general way, I stand by my earlier statement that I do not believe that every action that is a sin should be a crime. I think my statement "There are things that are sins that should not be made illegal. It is a sin to covet another's spouse or property. That doesn't mean that coveting should be made illegal. It is a sin to take the Lord's name in vain (such as printing it on mammon, but that's another discussion). That doesn't mean it should be a crime. We don't need police to arrest and jail blasphemers. I have known far too many 'bold Christians' who do seek to make all sins into crimes. It is that attitude that I fear." is clear. I also don't see where even those who might disagree with it could consider it controversial.
Likewise, if a candidate believes that certain chaotic and destructive things must happen to fulfill prophesies that will bring about Christ's second coming, and that if elected President his God-given mission will be to set those chaotic events in motion in order to fulfill prophecy by nuking the lands of the anti-Christ, then I don't think I want to vote for that candidate. That is a hypothetical position. If a candidate comes along who fits that description, then I will refrain from voting for that candidate for that reason. As of my typing of this post, I am not aware of any specific candidate who fits that description.
As for specific examples of laws passed by politicians who attempted to impose their religious beliefs on everyone, I would think everyone was aware of historical religious persecution of against people who believe in different religions. There have been instances of the ultimate persecution, putting those who practiced other religions to death. And there have been lesser persecutions such as simply showing favoritism towards those who belong to the favored religion.
And the saddest of all is persecution, including subtle persecution, of those who are members of different denominations of the same religion. Whether it was members of the Church of England forcing those who believed in Calvinist theology to flee to first Holland and then to New England or members of the fundamentalist movement in America forcing Christian parents of the catholic and protestant denominations to have their children taught creationism in public schools funded by public tax revenues which goes against their understanding of Scripture, such use of government power to give any sect or denomination of the Christian church dominion over another is wrong.
I do believe that a great many voters will look very closely at any candidate who gives the impression of possibly fitting that description. Likewise, I will look very closely at any candidates who appear to support a socialist form of government, and will not support them. My fears of certain positions possibly making a candidate someone I cannot vote for simply mean that I shall look at their positions more closely, not that I will automatically reject them without consideration. |
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J Dan Brown
Kitten
Joined: 18 Nov 2007
Posts: 147
Location: Elm Grove, LA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you, Sharring! I am honored and blessed to be compared to those verses. I guess that my practical version of Christianity that helps me function in this fallen and corrupted world in these last days may seem strange to some. I shouldn't try to explain it. And I should be immune to any discomfort caused by the questioning of it.
I feel God's love, grace and mercy all around me consistantly and constantly. I know I am called and used according to His purposes, and that I am rich in the blessings to be found in everything, even the difficult paths ands tests of faith. I will continue to strive to ignore temptation's voice and rather only seek His voice and His face. I trust and obey and know that I am and I understand as He intended, just like He promised. No man should be able to make me question or be shamed by what I understand to be truth by the power of the Holy Spirit. If I allow that, the weakness is in me and my faith, but I will be made stronger through this so I should only rejoice. And this I will! After I meditate on how I allowed the insecure feelings to arise in the first place.
Blessed, by kind and patient friends, love all you guys, Dan |
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sharring
Tiger
Joined: 04 Feb 2004
Posts: 813
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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You have done an excellent job of documenting your fears George E. The only thing that's lacking is any kind of relationship between your fears and the candidates involved in the Iowa elections.
I've recently read a quote from Mr. Obama which says "Vote your hopes. Don't vote your fears". This guy looks good in print. If there is a backlash against the Republican Party (due to the Iraqi war) in the upcoming elections i predict he'll be a serious contender. His inexperience seems to be his biggest negative.
From what i've read on Huckabee people seem to view him as a staunch religious conservative. And he has ten years experience as the governor of Arkansas.
Romney is known as the Morman while Thompson is the Actor. While Romney is showing lots of support in Iowa now, i think his association with the Mormans is going to count against him in the future. I can only guess that more people identify with Huckabee's stated beliefs than Romney's pertaining to religion.
Come on Americans, help me out here. Who would you vote for and why? |
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sharring
Tiger
Joined: 04 Feb 2004
Posts: 813
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| While watching the news this morning a few items caught my ears. First that Romney outspent Huckabee in Iowa-4 million dollars compared to 220 thousand dollars. That's about 20 to 1 i think. Second is that Huckabee's going to be on the Jay Leno show tonight. Third is that Obama is pulling away from Clinton and Edwards on the Democratic side of the election. I believe the voting starts tomarrow. Jeff, i don't think Thompson is going to be much of a factor other than a spoiler. Too little tool late i think. |
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markm2553
Moderator
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Posts: 1006
Location: Marengo, IN USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:55 am Post subject: |
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Here is the site I heard about it. I had some trouble with it at home, once I got to the site I couldn't get out without closing my browser down?
But here at work it worked fine...
http://wnyw.4wmt.com/cmm/
I was not too suprised, see if you are. The closest match for me was 48%, three did that... |
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George E
Big Hamster
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 92
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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I've made a point of researching Huckabee's record. As with all politicians, I generally ignore their rhetoric and look at their accomplishments. Huckabee supported higher taxes and supported amnesty programs for illegal aliens. He opposed school vouchers, which is another way of saying he opposed Christian or other faith-based schools.
I'm sorry, but he strikes me as a RINO. His actions are not consistent with what would make me want to see him elected. The only way I could ever see myself voting for him would be if Hilary Clinton won the Democrat nomination. I'd vote for anyone who ran against her, even if I had to hold my nose to do it. |
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George E
Big Hamster
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 92
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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Time has past, and I've heard more and more about all of the candidates. And what I've learned about Huckabee really bothers me. For one thing, despite the fact that he is an ordained minister, he seems to be part of the religious left, not the religious right. It seems that his interpretation of how to do God's will on earth is to introduce a more socialist type of government.
It also appears that he is siphoning votes away from a genuinely conservative candidate, Mitt Romney, in order to enable the extremely liberal candidate, John McCain, win the nomination. McCain is a left-wing Democrat disguised as a Republican. He opposes some of the most important rights in our Constitution, especially the first and second amendments.
Over on the Democrat side, it's a race to see which socialist can do a better job of exploiting the politics of division to defeat the other.
To those of you who live outside the United States, I wouldn't count on the US for much of anything after January of 2009. No matter who wins, the United States is going to lose. We'll turn into a secular, socialist state, with God's people doing God's work replaced with government bureaucrats attempting to minister to people's physical needs, and everyone's spiritual needs ignored as not really existing. |
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jeff_osu
Tiger
Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 838
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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I remember hearing democrats saying the same thing back in 2000 and we made it out okay.
It's too bad Romney didn't get some more votes, but I have no problem voting for McCain in November. Obama and Clinton keep saying "Change, change, change" but I think at this point Americans just want someone to keep the boat afloat and stop fixing what isn't broke. |
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J Dan Brown
Kitten
Joined: 18 Nov 2007
Posts: 147
Location: Elm Grove, LA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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I suppose I have been blessed by a tremendously healthy faith and a trust in the Lord. I so completely trust in His infallible will, Romans 8:28 and many other promises plainly and clearly documented in God's Living Word, that I have a very difficult time dreading, doubting, or condemning anything in God's plan and that He allows to happen. I must pray for, yet pity the person whom God allows to waste much of his life in anger, bitterness, hopelessness and frustration. God's Word clearly states that Christ is our only hope and all our strengths, confidences and future.
I really don't think it much matters who becomes President, especially when compared to Salvation, Everlasting life and us being used as a tool to help bring some more with us to Heaven. I'm gonna pray a lot for the Holy Spirit to guide my vote, as I do with which song to play next in public or put on my next CD. I trust that nothing sneaks up on the Father or could possibly catch Him not paying attention, nor would He allow us to be caught in the predicament of having only equal evils to choose from for President of the United States. The one who will win is the one who fits His plan, plain and simple, whether it be someone whom He will allow to hasten the decadence of America or a man whom He will allow to help bring temporary hope and some good to the US in these promised "last days." I am definately a "prayer voter," but will definately not spend any of life's precious minutes believing anything but that "God will orchestrate all of life," and not man, regardless of what happens!
Blessed, so mavelously, tremendously and so very, very blessed, Dan |
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George E
Big Hamster
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 92
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| jeff_osu wrote: | I remember hearing democrats saying the same thing back in 2000 and we made it out okay.
It's too bad Romney didn't get some more votes, but I have no problem voting for McCain in November. Obama and Clinton keep saying "Change, change, change" but I think at this point Americans just want someone to keep the boat afloat and stop fixing what isn't broke. |
The thing is, just because people on both sides of an argument might say some of the same things about the other side doesn't mean both sides are correct. Secular Humanists say that Christians are wrong. Christians say that Secular Humanists are wrong. Does the fact that Secular Humanists say the same thing about Christians that Christians say about Secular Humanists prove that both sides are either right or wrong?
I have a severe problem with voting for McCain. I treasure the fact that the First Amendment guarantees the separation of state and church, and that no government agency or official can tell me what I can or cannot preach from the pulpit on Sunday. McCain has already gutted the freedom of speech clause with the McCain-Feingold law. I shudder to think what else he'll do.
God's will is carried out by God's people following God's Word. God gave us the gift of free will, which means that we can reject Him. For God's will to be done, the responsibility falls to the people of God to be active and involved in carrying out God's mission and ministry. I don't deny that God calls some individuals to live lives of cloistered contemplation separated from the rest of the world. But He doesn't call on all Christians to follow that particular path. Most of us are called to be the instruments of God's will, to take proactive action to accomplish God's purposes. |
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markm2553
Moderator
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Posts: 1006
Location: Marengo, IN USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:24 am Post subject: |
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While McCain might not be my first choice, I think he would do a better job of Supreme Court appointments than the other side would. Something that will affect our country for a generation…
I stopped listening to talk radio several years ago; it has really helped my outlook on life.
I don't think a Clinton or Obama ticket can win, but maybe a Clinton and Obama ticket? What do you think? 
I have read the Book and know how it ends, but that doesn't mean I can hide and watch, I still have to run the best race I can.
Pray like it all depends on God, work like it all depends on you; as they say... |
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