Perhaps a more universal view?

jeff_osu · Tiger Joined: 17 Sep 2003 Posts: 838 Location: Oklahoma

Lately I've been doing alot of thinking about churches and which denomination suits me best, and I went off on a little tangent.

It is said that if you don't believe Jesus was your savior, you go to Hell. However, what about some poor pre-Columbus Native American? Or Aborgine? Greeks?

And then I read a book of creation myths from different relgions. Native Americans and Scandanavian resemble each other in many cases, and most follow the same premise.

So...what if God gives a religion to people that best suits them? As mentioned, pre-Columbus Indians and such believed in "The Great Spirit".

The notion that God only cared about a small portion of Syria just doesn't hold up. Yes, he sent His Son, but to be saved you had to believe in him, and much of the world simply did not know he even existed. I can't pretend to even begin to understand God, but I think there is a LOT more than what is told to us as "fact".

Herb · Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:08 pm Post subject:

This is something I really dislike getting into, but here's my view. There's a lot of different religions, most of them being based on the belief of one supreme God. The beliefs are mostly the same, the differences are in how to worship - i.e. political. The human interpretation factor. I don't think one supreme God would allow only one to be correct, and none of the others. It's like all the different factions of Christianity. Each thinks the other is going to Hell, but they all believe the same thing. It's just politics. Jesus was a Jew, Jews don't believe he's the true Son of God. Are they all going to Hell? The Bible says 144,000 of them aren't! I don't claim any religion for myself other than Christianity. It's hard to find a church or religion that isn't hypocritical. My $.02.

sharring · Tiger Joined: 04 Feb 2004 Posts: 812 Location: Texas

Jeff, i don't have my Bible with me (still using the local library) but i remember in Romans Paul saying something about the ones that don't have the Law still have it written on their hearts. God is, whether we acknowledge Him, are ignorant or whatever. As far as Him giving us religions that suit us, well He gave us His son-that's the example and the standard. And Bro Herb, i apoligize in advance but there is a lot of doctrinal differences among various denominations that arn't Biblically based. Man seems to always want to add to God's word or change it. Must be a pride thing. Be God's-scott

PeaceMaker · Goldfish Joined: 03 Feb 2004 Posts: 61

Hi All,

The whole Human Race is Condemed and lost without Christ: we as Christians just cannot have any other view... We have to adhere to the Word Of The LORD: every single person born onto this planet is condemned from Adam and Eve on down... And we need to know that God did not condemn us: Adam and Eve condemned us... It was out of God hands as soon as He gave Adam the "One Law" of the garden: "Thou Shalt Not Eat of the Tree of the Knowlege of Good and Evil"... When Adam broke God's Law he condemned the Human Race not God!... God made the Law, He didn't break it... And we cannot say that God is "Unjust": God stands as Creator and Judge of the Universe and was "Just" in making the Law; and "Just" in pronoucing the sentence of Hell on us for breaking His Law (for that was the penalty for breaking It)... Moreover God has not only been "Just" but He has also been "Merciful" in sending Christ Jesus to pay for our breaking of His Law... So what do You want, "Justice" or "Mercy"?

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [Adam's breaking of God's One Law] judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [Christ Jesus] the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Also, take the examples of Christ, John the Baptist, the Apostle Peter, the Apostle John, and Apostle Paul as your own: all of them said in one way or another that their was no salvation outside of Christ, and they all died for what the believed... They all had a very narrow view about salvation; especially Christ, the One that we are to follow in the steps of:

Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in there at:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way [to God], the truth [of God], and the life [of God]: no man cometh unto the Father [God/Heaven], but by me.

Checkout this page intitled "The Way" at: http://www.humblefishmall.com/theway.html .

Now concerning those that have never heard and died before Christ, there are several things to consider: first, the Word Of God declares that Christ went and Preached to the Spirits that were in prison (Hell):

1-Peter 3
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison (Hell);
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

And two, the Word Of God declares that Christ acended into the lower parts of the earth (Hell) and led captivity (Hell) captive, so it is very likely that Christ preached the Gospel to those in captivity (Hell) and saved all that would receive it:

Ephesians 4
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity [Hell] captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth [Hell]?
10 He that descended [into Hell] is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Matthew 27
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

And three, the Word Of God declares that there is a cloak for sin:

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

So, as You can see God's got it covered when it comes to those that died before Christ, and those that have never heard... And God is "Just" in keeping His Gospel [Good News] just the way it is and throwing all into Hell that won't receive it!

Now as for all the religions being practically the same except for the politics of worship, this is just not true... For instance and most important is that Christ Jesus is the only one that ever raised Himself from the dead to prove that what He was saying was true... All the other Religous Leaders for example Mohammed, Budda, Etc, are dead and buried and in their graves... Go to their graves, and dig up their bones; go to their urn and sift through their ashes... Is there life in there?... Go ahead and follow a dead man if You want, but I'm going to follow the risen Christ who walked out of the grave like He said, to prove that what He was saying is true.

Moreover Christianity is different than all the other religions in other ways: Christainity is the only religion that is "Grace Based", all the other religions are "Works Based"... In Christianity through grace God wants to give You Heaven; and in all the other religions You have to work Your way into Heaven, Nirvana, Paradise, Etc... Christianity is also the only religion where God is reaching down to man trying to pull him up to Heaven; all the other religions are man trying to reach up to God and by personal good works trying to climb up to Heaven... In Christianity God wants to give You Heaven as a Free Gift; in all the other religions You have to work for, and earn Heaven... And let's not forget that Christianity is supernatural; that God actually comes to permantly live in and becomes one with every new believer... I'm sorry, but Christianity is not even close to being like the other religions:

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Also, to interpose what we believe or have read over what the Bible says in order not to offend, is nothing less than to call God/Christ Jesus a liar and errect an Idol of a politically correct false God in our hearts:

Ezekiel 14:3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?

Moreover, if we think that God is Love and He won't throw anyone in Hell, think again... If God would throw His sinless Son into Hell after He endured all the tortures of the Cross, God will have no problem throwing us in Hell for rejecting His Word... Read the Old Testament to see if God is afraid to do with the people of earth what He sees fit. Check this name that God gave himself in the Old Testament (I am the LORD that smiteth):

Ezekiel 7:9 And mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: I will recompense thee according to thy ways and thine abominations that are in the midst of thee; and ye shall know that I am the LORD that smiteth.

Love in Christ,
PeaceMaker
Romans 5:1 KJV

Edit: Corrected Spelling, and added Matthew 27:50-53 KJV.
Edit: Added Romans 5:18 KJV.
Edit: Corrected wording, added to Differences, and added Romans 8:9 KJV

jeff_osu · Tiger Joined: 17 Sep 2003 Posts: 838 Location: Oklahoma

The fall from grace thing is a very common theme in religions, along with floods, water, etc.

For the blackfoot tribe of North America, their fall-from-grace story was about a "feather-girl" who pulled up a great turnip from her house in the sky after being warned not to do so. She was punished with exile, and descended, thus a shooting star.

Tonight I read some more of this book that sparked this thread, and about 2/3 of religions are very, very similar. However, I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying that it disproves Christianity, but that maybe God presented religions to peoples based on their culture or for whatever reason (which I can't even begin to understand). Basically, it's way over mankind's head, but I think there's more to it than on the surface. It can't be just coincidance that so many isolated cultures came up with very, very similar religions, with similar ideas about virtues, sins, and even nudity.

I absolutely believe in Jesus Christ, out of his disciples weren't 10 or so executed? If someone didn't believe in Jesus they probaly wouldn't go through what they did with steadfast faith.

PeaceMaker · Goldfish Joined: 03 Feb 2004 Posts: 61

gospelbluesboy · Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 6:40 am Post subject:

In the words of the Master himself...

John 14:6 Jesus said unto them "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me".

"NO MAN cometh to the Father but BY ME" That pretty much sums it up, I see how it can be any clearer. There can not be multuple truths, there is only One.

Peter said,

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other name: for there is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

As far as those who died having not heard the truth, God is just God and will judged accordingly. But again, Jesus was very clear, "No man cometh to the Father but by Me"

That makes the charge of Matthew 28:19 that much more important.

steve

ACfixer · Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:21 am Post subject:

I am with Herb here in that I claim Christianity for myself. This question divides friends more than it ever helps anybody. I claim to be (and am!) a Christian and nothing else. Nothing besides Jesus and the blood he shed for my sins will get ME (or YOU) into the kingdom. John 14:6 is VERY clear on that issue.

Now, that being said... I know the truth, you know the truth and we have been given the choice to accept it or reject it. Now you can tell the Gospel to a 3 year old and if he wants to watch cartoons instead did he reject it? Of course not. If the 3 year old dies will he go to heaven? Of course he will, we don't even question that. Some denoms and faiths believe in child baptism for such things but I personally feel baptism is a choice made by a believer AFTER he/she is saved. What if the Gospel is hsared with a 12 year old? Now we get into a different area because when we are of an age where we can accept or reject the truth knowing the difference between right and wrong then we ARE responsible for what we do with the truth.

Patience, I am going somewhere with this... Wink

God is a fair and just God, the Bible says so. The Bible also declares in Romans that when it comes to realizing there is a creator, man is without excuse because the heavens declare His glory. So... Let's say a 16 year old that works in the rice patties in China in the year 1127 believes there is a divine creator but the Gospel has never been shared to him is killed. He knew by looking at God's creation that it was no accident and for that he is without excuse, only a fool denies there is a God. Now he's never heard the name Jesus Christ... so he can't be saved like you and I, but he's never heard the truth. God is fair and just, I'll leave it at that and you can draw your own conclusion.

The book of Hebrews lends another clue. Heros of the faith... None of the men in the Old Testament knew the name Jesus Christ as such. They knew there WOULD be a savior, but it came after their time. My details might be a little fuzy here but I believe Jesus appeared after his death to them right? I guess they made a decision post-humously to accept Him? I am a little unclear on this but the Bible does say those men were made rightous by faith and God does not send the rightous (in His eyes) to hell. Could it not be possible that Jesus also appears much in the same way to the 16 year old rice picker? I dunno for sure... I just know God is fair.

I don't have to believe someone else is going to hell in order for ME to be saved. All I need do is have Jesus Christ as my savior. I am responsible for ME and I have been entrusted with the truth to share with others so that they may be saved. What I believe happened to an Eskimo from pre-Columbus days really has no consequence does it?

sharring · Tiger Joined: 04 Feb 2004 Posts: 812 Location: Texas

The point is moot sir. All i know is Christ and him crucified too. But now we see through a glass darkly. Then (later) we will see face to face. scott

ACfixer · Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:30 pm Post subject: